Topic: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

I finally got around to starting a brickset for Sunshine Paradise.

Most recent screenshots:
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/9x5me9fyzatdsek/paradise-s034.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/aocd60a53v0ed56/paradise-s038.png

Todo: Curves and runnable walls. If anyone knows how to make them work,
feel free to make the necessary changes. smile

Changes:

  • Added dirt slopes.

  • Added more foliage.

  • Ended the showcase level.

Older changes:

  • Added brighter bricks. (Let me know if you still think they're too dark.)

  • Added rocky slopes and finished the graphics for the outer curves.

  • Added bushes and light waterfalls. (No heavy waterfalls yet.)

  • Built more of the sample level.

Older screenshots:
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/p7by6waofc8sskq/paradise-s003.pnghttps://dl.dropbox.com/s/koo8hco6sk53txf/paradise-s019.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/omrwnexfwc3729z/paradise-s007.pnghttps://dl.dropbox.com/s/jm9hzixyfqpfuk4/paradise-s021.png


Here is a download link for the brickset, brick images and sample level.

paradise-files.zip

Let me know what you think so far. If any more questions come up, feel free to post.

Last edited by svgmovement (2013-03-26 05:35:53)

-- svgmovement

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

Awesome!

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

Very Nice. However It's a little dark for SP don't you think?

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

This section is inside a cave, so its darker
than other parts.

I will post more screenshots later.

Thanks for your input,

EDIT: Added more bricks for a brighter feel, with more screenshots:
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/omrwnexfwc3729z/paradise-s007.png https://dl.dropbox.com/s/67vmax6he6vw1gy/paradise-s008.png

Last edited by svgmovement (2013-02-11 05:54:14)

-- svgmovement

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

svgmovement wrote:

This section is inside a cave, so its darker
than other parts.

I will post more screenshots later.

Thanks for your input,

EDIT: Added more bricks for a brighter feel, with more screenshots:
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/omrwnexfwc3729z/paradise-s007.png https://dl.dropbox.com/s/67vmax6he6vw1gy/paradise-s008.png

hi svgmovement,

thanks for the initiative smile there are some good ideas in there, and we can definitely use them. However, building the brickset requires even more attention: there's a crucial thing that needs to be discussed. And I definitely need help tongue

i'd like to discuss two things: shapes & textures. is that ok? smile

i'm asking your help, but this message is also directed to anyone who wants to help.



=== Shapes ===

the main problem of the current sunshine brickset (the one in the bleeding edge) is that the shapes of the bricks have a bad design: it's impossible to make decent levels with nice curves and slopes using it. Due to bad design, the bricks bug all over the place. That's the main reason why a new brickset is needed.

therefore, i want to ask you if you'd like to help us with the design of the shapes as well, not only with the textures. Is it possible? What makes this brickset so challenging is this: get the shapes right.

I talked to an artist the other day, Matwek, and he provided a skeleton featuring all sorts of nice curves. Although the shapes are much better than the simple polygons we have in the brickset of the bleeding edge, there are still some design issues: namely, non-symmetry (for example, we have a triangle facing right, but not the same triangle facing left) and also, apparently the constructions don't seem to follow any sequential logic, which complicates things when actually building the levels. "Sequential logic", do you get it?

Still, I spent some time aligning it to a 32x32 grid, so it can be used by us. Here it is:

http://upload.surgeswarehouse.com/upload/Tuesday12thofFebruary2013063344AM.png

So, this is great, but there are still two problems with it:
1) some constructions don't have their symmetric version
2) there's no apparent logic, which complicates things in the level editor

I'm also unsure that all these constructions are needed for Sunshine Paradise. Maybe a subset is enough. Which subset? I don't know. Do you? All I know is that SSP must have nice floors, curves, slopes and loops tongue Any ideas?



=== Texture ===

again, thanks for the submission smile

I have to agree, though, that it is a bit dark for sunshine paradise, even the brighter bricks. The color scheme of the current brickset is really good (it's "alive", it tends to be more orange, the grass is brighter). I guess we could maintain the more "alive" colors of the current brickset, but incorporate your changes.

so, the current brickset is this - see the brighter colors:
http://opensnc.sourceforge.net/wiki/images/3/33/S022.png

The darker textures you are submitting can, however, fit in nicely with the underwater parts of the level - specially your wild grass/plants. The mud texture is also great for underwater areas.

So, I made some experiments. I took your checkerboard pattern and made it brighter, and I also added some more detail to it. There are also 2 types of grass for surface bricks. Here is the result:

http://upload.surgeswarehouse.com/upload/Grid3.png

some pictures simulating the bricks:

http://upload.surgeswarehouse.com/upload/Tuesday12thofFebruary2013074327AM.png http://upload.surgeswarehouse.com/upload/Tuesday12thofFebruary2013074352AM.png




=== Conclusion ===

so, what do we do now?

i think the first step should be solve the shapes problem, and after that we can texture them. Would you be interested in the shapes? Please send an (any) answer, as this is a crucial step to do in this game.

At this very moment, we need a set of shapes, in a 32x32 grid-aligned image, that:
1) have symmetry among the shapes
2) have some sort of sequential logic (RBE scans from left to right - that will be the order in the level editor)
3) for SSP, decide which shapes are important, which are not. We want nice walls, floors, curves, slopes, loops.
note: different shapes must be separated by an empty space in the image, like in the example i posted

this is not so much art; it's more like a level design problem. smile


so its 5 am now, i need sleep. hopefully this post made the problem clear. if not, feel free to ask.

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

I'd just like to inform you that I'm using SVGMovment's brickset for my mod. It is slightly edited though

Last edited by S32X (2013-02-12 20:06:07)

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

I looked over the 32x32 grid, and I came to the following questions:

  • These are 128x128 tiles. To support all reasonable combinations of
    platform bricks alone, one would need about 50 tiles. That would fill an
    800x1920 image, or a 960x1600 image. We won't know which tiles to
    remove until after a level is made, which requires a brickset to begin with.

  • Some tiles are simply repeats of others shifted upward (and as you
    noted, we may not need all of the tiles anyway). While it's easy to
    put the duplicates in order, I wonder if it not be better to replace the
    shifted tiles with brick groups. (Just add the bricks to the bottom with
    the curve on top.)

This thread gives me an idea of how to create a level without
needing a brickset. (Or at lest figure out which bricks aren't
needed.)
Fontstruct and open surge

Here you can download my progress with brick texturing:
Download SSPon-grid.png

A resequenced (though revisable) tile grid:
http://upload.surgeswarehouse.com/upload/on-grid.png

Last edited by svgmovement (2013-02-18 05:31:56)

-- svgmovement

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

Great template!

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

Hi svgmovement,

thanks for the template smile

svgmovement wrote:

These are 128x128 tiles. To support all reasonable combinations of
platform bricks alone, one would need about 50 tiles. That would fill an
800x1920 image, or a 960x1600 image. We won't know which tiles to
remove until after a level is made, which requires a brickset to begin with.

indeed, we don't know. Maybe we have to guess?

svgmovement wrote:

This thread gives me an idea of how to create a level without
needing a brickset. (Or at lest figure out which bricks aren't
needed.)
Fontstruct and open surge

automatically?

svgmovement wrote:

Some tiles are simply repeats of others shifted upward (and as you
noted, we may not need all of the tiles anyway). While it's easy to
put the duplicates in order, I wonder if it not be better to replace the
shifted tiles with brick groups. (Just add the bricks to the bottom with
the curve on top.)

not sure if I follow, what do you mean by "replace the shifted tiles with brick groups"?

all these 'tiles' (big blocks) are already groups of tiny square-shaped bricks. Some, as you already noticed, are redundant (shifts of one another) and thus can be removed from the png. Can you do this? smile

by the way, you talked about duplicates - it would be nice if our editor could display several groups at once - like, say, it could have a better entity selection screen. At the moment we can only highlight one entity at a time. Not great usability after all. Such a screen is a bit difficult to make imo, but I'll give some thought to it. smile

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

Here's an example of a brick set along the same lines as the template
http://imgkk.com/i/1dqb.png
from
http://sonicresearch.org/forums/index.p … mp;p=34510

done

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

Alexandre wrote:
svgmovement wrote:

These are 128x128 tiles. To support all reasonable combinations of
platform bricks alone, one would need about 50 tiles. ....

indeed, we don't know. Maybe we have to guess?

svgmovement wrote:

This thread gives me an idea of how to create a level without
needing a brickset. (Or at lest figure out which bricks aren't
needed.)

automatically?

Yes. All that's needed is a program to keep a reference count on the
bricks used. Any bricks/groups with a zero reference count could
be dropped.
Also, if Open Surge ever uses that alternate level format discussed in the
"Fontstruct and open surge" thread, then the only removal of bricks would
be from the image. (The master group set would work better with uniform
images, or at least uniform bricksets.)

Alexandre wrote:
svgmovement wrote:

...While it's easy to
put the duplicates in order, I wonder if it not be better to replace the
shifted tiles with brick groups. (Just add the bricks to the bottom with
the curve on top.)

not sure if I follow, what do you mean by "replace the shifted tiles with brick groups"?

all these 'tiles' (big blocks) are already groups of tiny square-shaped bricks. Some, as you already noticed, are redundant (shifts of one another) and thus can be removed from the png. Can you do this?

I've actually removed some tiles already. There are two tiles that
could be replaced with tile groups (i.e. the outer curves downward),
but I think the best approach is to figure out which tiles we need
one time, then remove.

Alexandre wrote:

by the way, you talked about duplicates - it would be nice if our editor could display several groups at once - ... Such a screen is a bit difficult to make imo, but I'll give some thought to it.

That would be cool. smile ...if you have the time. hmm

-- svgmovement

12

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

i can't help but reinforce the "flip/rotate bricks" suggestion - most bricksets could be reduced to 1/4 size

https://image.ibb.co/kuSYrm/SD_sml.pnghttps://image.ibb.co/kHq8P6/SeD_sml.pnghttps://image.ibb.co/cJf8P6/LTot_W_sml.png

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

The problem comes if a brick's image has lighting
or other effects that, if flipped or rotated, will
conflict with other bricks of the same image.

If the brick images were specially designed to
remain coherent while flipped and rotated, there
would be no problem.

I think the need here is to be able to set each brick
instance's angle (a little different from rotating the
brick).

-- svgmovement

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

svgmovement wrote:

The problem comes if a brick's image has lighting
or other effects that, if flipped or rotated, will
conflict with other bricks of the same image.

I had an idea for that but I'm not sure if it will work

How hard will it be to add a dynamic lighting to the engine?

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

svgmovement wrote:

The problem comes if a brick's image has lighting
or other effects that, if flipped or rotated, will
conflict with other bricks of the same image.

S32X wrote:

I had an idea for that but I'm not sure if it will work

How hard will it be to add a dynamic lighting to the engine?

I think it's best to leave dynamic lighting for a future
version of Open Surge, and focus on making levels
and art with what we already have.

However, Alexandre may have a different opinion.
...

-- svgmovement

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

On the topic of dynamic lighting:
In all reality this would probably have to be implemented at an engine level and would require shade-less brick sets that picked up shading information based on proximity to the nearest light source and the intensity of that source and the color of their 'lighting mask', in other words a heap load of math and a cosmetic feature that we don't precisely need but it would be cool if we had.  It could potentially be implemented as objects, but that would potentially turn every single brick into an object that reacted to the presence of light by changing its state of animation, and if I'm not mistaken, objects can already be rotated.  So, it may be in your best interest to study how such a system works and then see which features you would need to design such a thing and then determine how to implement it.  I'm betting you could do it with the object construction system as it is right now, just keep in mind that many reactive objects may slow down your game quite a bit.

If I knew then what I know now I'd tell you that the story's true.  Cause whatever you do, it comes back to you.  -Slaughter, Burning Bridges

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

Update to my brickset submission:
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/koo8hco6sk53txf/paradise-s019.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/jm9hzixyfqpfuk4/paradise-s021.png

paradise-files.zip

Last edited by svgmovement (2013-03-10 05:28:29)

-- svgmovement

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

Your brickset is really coming along. I'm starting to really like it. smile

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

nice work. That bush is awesome, too. smile Some of the bricks can definitely be used, specially (but not only) on the underwater part.

there are some bugs here and there, but i'll be working to texturize the shapes soon. smile

http://upload.surgeswarehouse.com/upload/Tuesday12thofMarch2013040509AM.png
http://upload.surgeswarehouse.com/upload/Tuesday12thofMarch2013040517AM.png

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

Brickset Update

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/9x5me9fyzatdsek/paradise-s034.png https://dl.dropbox.com/s/aocd60a53v0ed56/paradise-s038.png

Sorry I couldn't fix the wall issues, but I don't know what else
to do than change the angles. I hope the brickset is useful.

-- svgmovement

21

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

love the scenery! those plants are awesome big_smile

svgmovement, would you be willing to do some plants in an HD-ready size (One-segment plants up to 1024*1024, and some others split into modules)? commissioned work! if you are, leave me a pm with prices and conditions, then we negotiate from there smile

https://image.ibb.co/kuSYrm/SD_sml.pnghttps://image.ibb.co/kHq8P6/SeD_sml.pnghttps://image.ibb.co/cJf8P6/LTot_W_sml.png

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

svgmovement wrote:

Brickset Update

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/9x5me9fyzatdsek/paradise-s034.png https://dl.dropbox.com/s/aocd60a53v0ed56/paradise-s038.png

Sorry I couldn't fix the wall issues, but I don't know what else
to do than change the angles. I hope the brickset is useful.

SVG I just gotta say, you really outdid yourself on this one. Talk about "wow"!

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

truly amazing stuff. It will be very very useful, indeed. smile

Don't worry too much about the angles for now, we'll sort it out.

Re: Sunshine Paradise brickset submission

Great work!

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/p7by6waofc8sskq/paradise-s003.png
IMO, this looks good and unique enough for a separate zone (e.g. "Black Forest Zone").