Topic: <important> new development philosophy

Summary

I am changing the development philosophy of Open Surge. Our game will be less community-driven, to be built more as a medium-sized indie project. I am going to collect donations and use those to pay for code, art, music, etc. I am going to invest less time in developing engine features, and more time building the game called Open Surge. Feature requests for the engine may also be accepted, as long as users make donations (PayPal).

2011 was a tough year for us. Ideally, Open Surge should have at least two new releases per year. One release is the absolute minimum. Yet, last year we failed to achieve that: we had zero releases.

I am convinced that the community-driven approach will not lead us much far than what we have already achieved up to now.



Open talk

I love you guys. But I am frustrated. Like me, some of you are also frustrated. Last year I heard some complaints from you via IM, and more recently some public threads about this frustration emerged.

Thinking about it, I am at fault in here, because I have been failing to grasp a fundamental fact about this project: Open Surge is actually two distinct produts, with distinct users who have different needs:

  • The Open Surge ENGINE: the engine is a piece of software which I have been writing since 2008. Its users are the "modders", and what they really care about is using the engine to create their own games. A large part of this community is composed by the "modders".

  • The Open Surge GAME: the game is what I really care about. It is built on top of the engine, and its users are the "players". What they all want is to get themselves a nice time while playing it. By far, most of the visibility of Open Surge happens due to the "players".

Trying to get modders working on the game is counter-productive. This is a core issue, related to their motivations. Working this way yields little results and is being extremely frustrating for me and for them. Through the past months, I can enumerate many situations where stuff didn't get done and people became "unmotivated". Although I hear the criticism and sometimes do make changes, I'd like to not give up on my vision for the game. Criticism is a two-way road: I hear them, but I also want to be able to criticize people, specially if the tasks assigned to them are hard/time-consuming, without having to fear they will get "unmotivated", so that I end up having to do the tasks all by myself. I too do not want to fear that people may suddenly "disappear" after being criticized.

Modders do not enjoy when feature requests they make are rejected. Sometimes they even get furious. tongue While I certainly will not respond to rage, I can understand its causes: currently, I am the only person in the world who has the technical knowledge to make any significant changes to the engine; to develop the things users need. In case of rejection, the request simply won't get done, which frustrates them. Getting rejected is part of life: there will always be some rejection, but we should be able to find a way to minimize everyone's frustration and maximize everyone's happiness. smile

Likewise, I also do feel unhappy by working on countless feature requests for free, while at the same time I am seeing that the game does not progress the way it should. I've been lost on technicalities lately, and I do not find that to be rewarding. Although I judge feature requests from a technical point of view, making some of them feels like tourture to me. It seems like we are all not very happy after all. sad

Since the community hosts mostly modders, I am making the Open Surge game to become less community-driven, less dependant on the good will of people, because their motivations are different. People already told me via IM that they feel very motivated by working on their MODs ("thank you!!! it's my dream since I was 5!!!"), but get very unhappy/upset by working on Open Surge, specially when being criticized ("do it yourself, I don't care"). I just must accept that. Modders should not be working on Open Surge, unless they genuinely want to. It's not their job.



Getting things to move

I provide modders the basic stuff: an engine. Although it could be more feature-rich, we all know that we have a pretty decent engine already. It's quite flexible, it is of good quality, and you can already make lots of interesting games with it. This is for free, but if one needs anything more than the basics, we'll have to negotiate.

I will be implementing new engine features only if there is a clear, short-term goal related to the Open Surge game. Feature requests that do not fit in that category can still be accepted, provided that the interested user makes a donation to the project. This doesn't mean that all requests will be accepted, but that I could be more tolerant to them. Having a donation would make both parties happier: I would be happier, because I would be rewarded for my service and because I could use part of the money to pay for game assets. The requester would be happier, because he or she could have the engine feature done. The value of a donation must be discussed case to case, depending on technical issues. While a few can be expensive (ie, "string support"), others can be cheaper (ie, "on_category_collision").

If a feature request isn't clearly connected to the Open Surge game and if the requestant isn't willing to make a donation for the service, then we just won't have a deal. At the very least, users need not to get frustrated. There is no free lunch.

My goal now is to release 0.2.0 and to collect donations from actual players as well, so that we can continue operations for later versions of Open Surge.




Sorry for the long post, but I hope this has helped clearing up some issues. smile

Re: <important> new development philosophy

I'ts a gooooood idea.

I'm not contributing nothing in a lot of time but If you want to make a game and you're the leader of the group you must take the big desitions, like changing all the SEGA characters to your own, expanding or not the engine, etc.

I've seen this problem in my own forum, I've a Game Development < http://www.windspro.org/c2-desarrollo-de-juegos > category, and the users want to contribute, but not as the developer expected. i.e. the graphics don't look as he want, etc.

"I want to help" says, but they has no idea about how to or basically don't have the skills to help.

If you see in that forum there are 2 main games 'Platform Island Adventures' and 'Maelyrian Strategy'. In the first game the developer accept the graphics of the users (I did some, and some that I did was not used too). But the final result was not the graphics that the developer want. Now the game is not active. (part because he want to do another game).

In the second game the developer do all the things, graphics and programming (the music is from other games..) and the project is in development, with releases once a week or two!

Also I've done some small games, with the help of no-one, I can use the graphics I do, put the music I want and add the features I like to have, no more.

http://www.windspro.org/t1404-space-bird-10
http://www.windspro.org/t1397-ta-te-ti-10-by-lainz
http://www.windspro.org/t1339-operacion … aticas-v02

But those are small games.

Open Surge want to be a great game, and already this game is very popular (in the meaning of 'is in a lot of sites') with updates or not, I can search in google Open Sonic and the people published this in thousands of top download websites, forums and the criticism is sometimes good, and sometimes bad because this is unfinished.

The people will get confused when the Open Sonic will not be updated anymore? and changed to Open Surge (I think only  a few people know that). It's like start over. And it's ok if you want it because it's your game.

Also at this time I'm not a player, a modder or a contributor of this game, because I've passed the Open Sonic stages smile but I talk as an old friend of the opensnc house.

Re: <important> new development philosophy

Feature requests for the engine may also be accepted, as long as users make donations (PayPal).

Our game will be less community-driven

I am going to invest less time in developing engine features, and more time building the game called Open Surge

My goal now is to release 0.2.0 and to collect donations from actual players as well

I am convinced that the community-driven approach will not lead us much far than what we have already achieved up to now.

Well, its apparent Open Surge has not become anything like what it used to be or was intended to be.

Feel free to build a game with an incomplete engine.

And find a new moderator. Because I'm through.

Re: <important> new development philosophy

Goodbye. "OPEN" Surge.

Re: <important> new development philosophy

Alexandre, it is obvious to me that your coding style and mine differ greatly.  For example, please refer to the menu script in the SD development folder that I believe you currently have access to.  The problem here is, KZR and I are building an RPG game, and you want RPG elements, yet I have never seen you reuse any of our scripts, art assets, or anything else in Open Surge.  Why is this, our contribution to the project is mainly through developing SD, providing it for free, and liscensing all our stuff under CC-BY-SA so that it can be used in other projects without reprecussions.  I'm not sure how else I can contribute much to the project, especially when I put so much work into developing assets for SD and other projects that I am working on.  I document stuff in the wiki for you whenever I can, but I only have 24 hours in the day, and other things manage to eat those faster than I like.
If you have any suggestions, please feel free to post them.  Honestly, I am lost as to how I am to help you so that your game can become a reality.  Also, if the suggestion is to donate money then I am afraid I cannot help there.  College tends to tap my funds to the breaking point.
Thanks,

lunarrush

If I knew then what I know now I'd tell you that the story's true.  Cause whatever you do, it comes back to you.  -Slaughter, Burning Bridges

Re: <important> new development philosophy

i reinforce lunar's words here:

The problem here is, KZR and I are building an RPG game, and you want RPG elements, yet I have never seen you reuse any of our scripts, art assets, or anything else in Open Surge.

yes, from the beginning SD was a learning project on how to develop RPG features in this engine. Do you remember when I said:

with 2 or 3 levels, even a bit incomplete, released for everyone to test, then we can figure out which elements would fit in the Surge universe. Otherwise documents won't help much.

i also meant the same lunarrush just said. If you are taking the lead in all major decisions, then it was a good thing we didn't try to build any of this in Open Surge the game. It could become too simple or too complex or just don't fit from your point of view. Then we'd be losing time we could use to develop the same RPG features in SD. It's probably not a matter of liking our game better, it's just that there is so much work involved that we're either in one project or in the other.

i'm also afraid i can't donate. I can't even fund my own game right now. And donations haven't come in at all.

So I hope you see that this decision will probably not help you in a short to medium term. How long is it since i've created the donation box? almost one year now. And i do advertise about the game and have a bit of a social presence in the internet. The Daily Click, OpenGameArt, DeviantArt, Facebook... Even free game sites that found the game and re distribute every release without me asking for any help.

Taking this decision will give you more control over the project, indeed, but remember that the money will only come after the game has become very popular, and right now there's many people that don't even know about a Sonic Engine of any kind, but know there are tons of games based on Sonic and its mechanics. Few remember their names.

Have you seen how other open source projects have been working? how long before they got noticed? how long before the first donation? How they spread the word?

https://image.ibb.co/kuSYrm/SD_sml.pnghttps://image.ibb.co/kHq8P6/SeD_sml.pnghttps://image.ibb.co/cJf8P6/LTot_W_sml.png

Re: <important> new development philosophy

lainz wrote:

I'ts a gooooood idea.

Thanks. It's good to hear that. smile

lainz wrote:

"I want to help" says, but they has no idea about how to or basically don't have the skills to help.

That's very accurate for a community-driven philosophy.

lainz wrote:

It's like start over.

This start over is being incredibly difficult for us, but fortunately we got through most of it already. smile

lunarrush wrote:

Alexandre, it is obvious to me that your coding style and mine differ greatly.  For example, please refer to the menu script in the SD development folder that I believe you currently have access to.  The problem here is, KZR and I are building an RPG game, and you want RPG elements, yet I have never seen you reuse any of our scripts, art assets, or anything else in Open Surge.  Why is this, our contribution to the project is mainly through developing SD, providing it for free, and liscensing all our stuff under CC-BY-SA so that it can be used in other projects without reprecussions.  I'm not sure how else I can contribute much to the project, especially when I put so much work into developing assets for SD and other projects that I am working on.  I document stuff in the wiki for you whenever I can, but I only have 24 hours in the day, and other things manage to eat those faster than I like.
If you have any suggestions, please feel free to post them.  Honestly, I am lost as to how I am to help you so that your game can become a reality.  Also, if the suggestion is to donate money then I am afraid I cannot help there.  College tends to tap my funds to the breaking point.
Thanks,

lunarrush

I know, lunar.

Everything from Open Surge is still open: the code continues to be under the GPL, and the assets are still CC-BY-SA 3.0. It's still free software, to be freely used. You don't need to pay me a cent to use it. What I'm trying to do here is get some reward from my working hours, and use that to reward others (artists, musicians, etc), so that we can build Open Surge.

As much as I love you guys and enjoy a lot the MODs you make, I still want to see Open Surge being built.

lunar, I really do appreciate all the documentation you wrote; it's very important to us. I am grateful. Thank you, lunar! Likewise, I'm sure you appreciate using the Open Surge Engine. This is really an exchange: I give you something, you give me something back. Unfortunately, not everyone is like you. More often than I'd like, I give people something, and they tell me to fuck off. hmm This is not worthwhile, as I do have a goal in mind: create Open Surge. Therefore, I'm putting donations into the game.

My suggestion is that you keep working on SD, make it as best as you can, and open it up for crowdfunding. You then invest part of these donations on improving the engine, so both parties win. Indeed, my idea for Open Surge is to make a crowdfunding. On the other hand, if you say "I hate money, I won't do that", then I don't know what else to suggest. Also, if you don't think investing on the engine is worthwhile, then I don't know what to say.

KZR wrote:

i also meant the same lunarrush just said. If you are taking the lead in all major decisions, then it was a good thing we didn't try to build any of this in Open Surge the game. It could become too simple or too complex or just don't fit from your point of view. Then we'd be losing time we could use to develop the same RPG features in SD. It's probably not a matter of liking our game better, it's just that there is so much work involved that we're either in one project or in the other.

I understand your point of view, and this is related to what lainz said (and I quoted).

I want you to work on SD. This keeps you highly motivated, and if you grow, we grow.

KZR wrote:

i'm also afraid i can't donate. I can't even fund my own game right now. And donations haven't come in at all.
So I hope you see that this decision will probably not help you in a short to medium term. How long is it since i've created the donation box? almost one year now. And i do advertise about the game and have a bit of a social presence in the internet. The Daily Click, OpenGameArt, DeviantArt, Facebook... Even free game sites that found the game and re distribute every release without me asking for any help.

There's a thing called crowdfunding. Some websites, like http://8bitfunding.com/ , are specialized in that. Many games seem to be getting donations there. I plan to do something like that for Open Surge.

KZR wrote:

Taking this decision will give you more control over the project, indeed, but remember that the money will only come after the game has become very popular, and right now there's many people that don't even know about a Sonic Engine of any kind, but know there are tons of games based on Sonic and its mechanics. Few remember their names.
Have you seen how other open source projects have been working? how long before they got noticed? how long before the first donation? How they spread the word?

I understand this, but I have to take a shot. Keeping things the way they are now won't get Open Surge built, with 100% probability. I have to take that risk. If it doesn't work, well, at least I will have had tried. wink

Re: <important> new development philosophy

I think that what you are doing is good Alex.

What a project needs to be done is leadership and resources.

We have the resources here (levels, artwork, music, object, etc..) and the only thing you have to do is lead the project.

I think that what you people were doing with Sunshine Paradise (the post with all the info and coordinate efforts and you overlooking everything ) was a good aproach. If there is someone saying what to do and what not to do you will get to the final product quicker maybe losing some things in the way but also not allowing time-wastes in unnecesary things.


I'm just adding my two cents, not that i'm against KZR or lunarrush (two people that I admire, by the way). They both have good arguments but so do you Alex.

"The true master is always learning"
Avatar by Raul Sama.

Re: <important> new development philosophy

this is not like buying app content or game DLC, would it be possible to reward contributors instead of charging for new features?

https://image.ibb.co/kuSYrm/SD_sml.pnghttps://image.ibb.co/kHq8P6/SeD_sml.pnghttps://image.ibb.co/cJf8P6/LTot_W_sml.png

Re: <important> new development philosophy

for that Alexandre want to get money to retrieve the contributors and him for the features

Re: <important> new development philosophy

You are correct that you can not get volunteer coders to make what you want.  They will work on what interests them.  So the project will develop but not necessarily in the way you'd like.

No one has the right to get setup if you don't write what they want.  If they don't like it they can fork the project.

---

Whether you can continue will depend on your personal circumstance.  Maybe you can only do this in your spare time.

---

some projects have a monthly target, see-
http://ardour.org/news

---

thanks for creating this project, people shouldn't under-estimate the value of what is free smile

done

Re: <important> new development philosophy

...
Feature requests that do not fit in that category can still be accepted, provided that the interested user makes a donation to the project. This doesn't mean that all requests will be accepted, but that I could be more tolerant to them. Having a donation would make both parties happier: I would be happier, because I would be rewarded for my service and because I could use part of the money to pay for game assets. The requester would be happier, because he or she could have the engine feature done. The value of a donation must be discussed case to case, depending on technical issues. While a few can be expensive (ie, "string support"), others can be cheaper (ie, "on_category_collision").
If a feature request isn't clearly connected to the Open Surge game and if the requestant isn't willing to make a donation for the service, then we just won't have a deal. At the very least, users need not to get frustrated. There is no free lunch.

People must pay to you to get a simple function or feature that maybe have already been implemented by others in the internet/game developers?

i guess you firstly should think a bit more when take a desicion like this:

Since the community hosts mostly modders, I am making the Open Surge game to become less community-driven, less dependant on the good will of people, because their motivations are different. People already told me via IM that they feel very motivated by working on their MODs ("thank you!!! it's my dream since I was 5!!!"), but get very unhappy/upset by working on Open Surge, specially when being criticized ("do it yourself, I don't care"). I just must accept that. Modders should not be working on Open Surge, unless they genuinely want to. It's not their job.

Literally you kick out the MODders of the OS Community. Please don't do it! You would lose all the support that you've got since started this project.

Think and reflect.

Firstly, you noted that the game isn't go on. The engine isn't ready to be stable, there aren't many levels made.
Secondly, you rejected many purposes of features and arts by users.
Thirdly, the people don't know much about this project.
Fourthly, you want to implement a donation system, exchanging a purpose by a few dollars.

Before to say something, think and reflect what you want with this game. If you want to continue with this project keep quiet and think, again.
Well, the second step to evolve to a respectable and accepted game, a enjoyable and fun game, is advertising to our known friends, to many internet comunnity such as indie-games' fans, Facebook, Twitter, DeviantArt, etc
So following this you would achieve to attract public you need.
After that take the suggestions of many of the currently users of get support of artists, musicians, programmers, etc, in the communities.
Create a system where you provide a free basic game, with  basic levels and quests (two or three). If the player ends the game, you get him/her the possibility to download new levels by a dollar. Obviously people could download from the community free levels like small projects, but the non-free set of levels must to be very beautiful, complete, emotional, and everything you want, and would include 3 to 5 quests.
I mean if a player that was downloaded the basic game  want to contnue the adventure and story of the game, he/she must to pay a dollar. However he/she could get the simple levels written and designed by third parties (not so tested).
In this way you can offer things such as new carachters or objects.
Creative Commons keeps to do this.

By the way, please use and don't refuse. The modders and other people frequently have good ideas. You need good ideas. Please analise everyone instead of ban them. If you want, you could organise  many teams of development:

  • A team of internationalisation

  • Another team of artists, painters, musicians, level designers, etc

  • A team of developers and programmers who have the knowledgement to do it

  • and finally a team of moderators that coordinates all

Every integrant only can purpose and work for he/she was elected. Could be a person that belong more than one team, only if you know that he has the skills to do tasks in the other team.

The object of this is find more organisation in the building of the game.

Comments? give me your opinion Alexandre.

Re: <important> new development philosophy

Since the community hosts mostly modders, I am making the Open Surge game to become less community-driven, less dependant on the good will of people, because their motivations are different. People already told me via IM that they feel very motivated by working on their MODs ("thank you!!! it's my dream since I was 5!!!"), but get very unhappy/upset by working on Open Surge, specially when being criticized ("do it yourself, I don't care"). I just must accept that. Modders should not be working on Open Surge, unless they genuinely want to. It's not their job.

I Don't agree. I'm a modder and I genuinely want to help create the game. I'm not presenting you with my own graphics because I suck at pixel art. But I'll still give out scripts and ideas. (and of course: MODS)

CharlyTx wrote:

Please analise everyone instead of ban them

Yes! Only ban trolls and spammers. I you ban someone that has an idea that you don't like, you get nowhere. It's like walking across a bridge and you don't like a certain floor board, so you rip it up and throw it over. If an idea seems bad, try it out first.

CharlyTx wrote:

the second step to evolve to a respectable and accepted game, a enjoyable and fun game, is advertising to our known friends, to many internet comunnity such as indie-games' fans, Facebook, Twitter, DeviantArt, etc
So following this you would achieve to attract public you need.
After that take the suggestions of many of the currently users of get support of artists, musicians, programmers, etc, in the communities.

I had asked you (Alex) about advertisement a few times. But you kept saying no. You can only get people by reaching out. And you especially can't create Open Surge on your own.



As you can see, your making people angry, or at least annoyed. I feel for these people. Mainly because a friend of mine turned into a real ass last year. Like CharlyTx, I want you to consider what is being said, before Open Surge becomes Closed.

If this post gets me banned, then I'll say it now. Goodbye Open Surge Development Team. It was pleasure working with you.

Last edited by S32X (2012-06-30 09:33:22)

Re: <important> new development philosophy

CharlyTx, thanks for the input. smile

I think we have a clash of interests here. Modders want more engine development. I understand it. Players, on the other hand, want a game. And I am reaching out for the players. That was always motivation to work in here: to create a great game. I understand that we lose some users by saying that. Sorry if it doesn't please everyone. Not my goal.

Once we get the game being developed (art being created, etc. - it's stopped right now), we can certainly work longer on the engine. If we get donations, we get the art, and if we get the art, we get more of the game. If we get more of the game, we get more engine features. See?

You said that we need ideas, but I disagree. We already have good ideas. What we need is execution. Please take a look at the link: why artists don't like foss. Because of that link, you may understand why we're going to the donation route.

You also suggested having plenty of teams working on different stuff, just like a big company. This doesn't work in a FOSS project like this one (obviously - proof here), for reasons which I can detail for you if you're interested (people come and go, and we can't "order" anyone to do anything - if they don't feel like doing a particular task, they just tell us to "fuck off" - this has actually happened). I also realized that having modders working on open surge is a terrible idea, because they're (usually) just not motivated to do it. Modders should be working on their mods, c'est fini.

Finally, the model of selling additional levels isn't what we want after all, because Open Surge is free & open source software. Why buy anything if you can get it legally and for no cost somewhere else? Selling services, on the other hand, work, because people need those services.

We're creating value in here. If nobody feels that open surge is valuable enough to justify a donation, then why on earth should someone bother developing this?!

Re: <important> new development philosophy

Dont get things out of hand people, please.

@S32X Alexandre doesnt annoys people, on the opposite: hes a VERY VERY patient admin of this "game"

Silverstepp did good efforts for the game and created a pretty decent mod but parted ways because he misunderstood Alex's position in this issue.

Alex doesnt want to "close" this project to a few people (payers and developers who get paid) because if he wanted to he would have done so a LONG time ago. He wants to do good things but also receive compensation because he spends LOTS of free time creating and administrating a thing that gets him ZERO money and thats great (in my opinion). I understand his point of view but i'm not gonna pay him anything; I will collaborate with Open Surge (i decided to drop my mod and start scripting things for OS in summer) but i'm not gonna ask for anything (well, except for things like the save system that are essential to any game, not just an implementation).

I think we all should re-read what alex wants to do with the game, because he never said "lets do a closed-project".

Thanks for reading.

"The true master is always learning"
Avatar by Raul Sama.

Re: <important> new development philosophy

alright, time for my two cents.

it all really depends on how 'closed' everything actually becomes to non-donators. so far it seems like everything has still been very open even with the new policy. its just that the project's main focus should not be on money, but on making a product that people will like. i suppose Silver just felt like the project was just becoming a way to make money and nothing else, and overreacted.

we should not beg for donations, we should let them come as the game improves. i don't think asking for donations as soon as the game starts is a good idea, because its basically asking you to donate before you even see what the game itself is. that should be placed when you get to the end of the game, so they know what the experience is.

my main point is, the stuff needs to maintain a balance between having 'value' and being something truly fun to help with. otherwise nobody will want to help, because they just wouldn't think it would be worth their time. it is hard to say where that balance is, but its never easy, is it?

If you haven't figured it out yet, this is SilverstepP posting right now via Super's account. I honestly admit I overreacted at the time, and I do feel like I am sorry for doing so, looking back at my posts. It just seems like nothing I ever tried to contribute was what anyone wanted because every time I tried, I never knew what to actually change to improve. It got really unclear at times. Oh, and MM is still being worked on... just so you guys know. It isn't actually dead, though it was supposed to be.

Last edited by SupertheHedgie (2012-06-05 01:42:44)

Re: <important> new development philosophy

@Sugarmaster

You have to remember that I've only been part of the forums for 3 months now.

@Alexandre

I suggest working on the engine itself. I think you've got time since the project's on hold. A stable engine makes the game more plausible (especially for MODS). But if you want to create the game first, that's not up to me to decide.

Loss of artists is because of stealing. Looking on many sprite resources (since I suck at pixel art (as I said earlier)) many people put in big letters "GIVE CREDIT" and sometimes always put a threat at the en (I give credit to every one).

18

Re: <important> new development philosophy

I do think the game/engine need more internet presence. staying in this forum forever wont attract fans, modders or collaborations.

On the other hand, i've spoken with and polled opinions from many indie developers both in open and closed projects, and one thing is common: the amount of money donated to such projects is very small, even if the project is very well known. It's hard to appeal to the financial counterpart when a project is free. People take "free" for granted very easily, as in "if it's free, why should i donate? people don't feel like their money has a visible (or palpable) return.

As an experiment, i'm doing a small campaign on DeviantArt, that in the long run is working good. Basically, there is a table of prices, all very low and symbolic. By donating X points, the donor will get rewarded, being the lowest a custom NPC that just walks around, the highest a Boss+Enemies+Quest bundle. In 2 months i got 3 donors.

The fact that DA points are worthless as real life currency (can not be converted back to money) is not a drawback. Enough of them will let me buy a premium account and sell art for real money.

The point is, you get donations a bit more easily when you have fixed rewards, and different levels of donations unlocking such rewards. This model isn't new, i just re-adapted the Kickstarter concept. Kickstarter, Rockethub, Indiegogo... there are a lot of crowdfunding sites, just look up "crowdfunding"

now, crowdfunding on an open game is not impossible, but would probably never complete. This is due to the nature of open software, where achieving deadlines depends solely on the commitment, number, and experience of the contributors.

my suggestion is that we find a small number of things that appeal to gamers as rewards: custom characters, your logo on a stage... then set a price tag on them.

Studying projects in crowdfunding and their rewards will let us understand better what drives people to such donation model, rather than the old "could you spare us a coin?".

https://image.ibb.co/kuSYrm/SD_sml.pnghttps://image.ibb.co/kHq8P6/SeD_sml.pnghttps://image.ibb.co/cJf8P6/LTot_W_sml.png

Re: <important> new development philosophy

Oh! I'd like a billboard with my logo in City Chill/City Apoc zone!

Re: <important> new development philosophy

Alexandre wrote:

You also suggested having plenty of teams working on different stuff, just like a big company. This doesn't work in a FOSS project like this one (obviously - proof here), for reasons which I can detail for you if you're interested...

yes, please, explain me more.

S32X wrote:

I had asked you (Alex) about advertisement a few times. But you kept saying no. You can only get people by reaching out. And you especially can't create Open Surge on your own.

Alexandre, please use and don't refuse, again!
Hear at this guy and apply this.
Alexandre, I tried to tell you this: when I spoke of advertising, I wasn't talking about of paying a company to put small signs in popular websites. I tried to say that we -the community- can communicate via email, forums or somewhere else in the internet (no spamming, obviously) to a new purpose called OpenSurge, open-source software and a game that really will like them.
Free ads, a ear-to-ear gossip or as you like to call this.

Alexandre wrote:

I also realized that having modders working on open surge is a terrible idea, because they're (usually) just not motivated to do it. Modders should be working on their mods, c'est fini.

Do you know what's in their minds?
Maybe you're right and I should shut up me; or you've a preconceived notion, a prejudgement (something that we should oppose) of the modders are all lazy people and depressed.
Isn't terrible. Are they motivated to work, colaborate and share in this project? Maybe yes. Maybe they would feel happy and conformable with his/her own and with the community. Maybe it would be a little reference of a "internet curriculum", to work somewhere online. Maybe they conceive this game like a challenge they want to get over. Maybe its a baby they want to help you to raise it. I don't know. It's his/her work express this.

Alexandre wrote:

Finally, the model of selling additional levels isn't what we want after all, because Open Surge is free & open source software. Why buy anything if you can get it legally and for no cost somewhere else? Selling services, on the other hand, work, because people need those services.

You're alright.

Maybe it don't be profitable, unless it was a medium or large project.
Don't discard this, if some day you have an altern and non-free project.

Alexandre wrote:

I think we have a clash of interests here. Modders want more engine development. I understand it. Players, on the other hand, want a game. And I am reaching out for the players. That was always motivation to work in here: to create a great game. I understand that we lose some users by saying that. Sorry if it doesn't please everyone. Not my goal.

Then try to build a game, not a mount of code. Create art, not a little piece of ones and zeros. But don't forget if you don't have a good support under your game, it would  fall down.
So if you want to give life to this, please finish this release coming soon and begin a new release.
What to do? Collect all unofficial level sets published by the 0.2.0 version, and convert them to official levels. It would result to a disordered project but could give you a little more time to develop the story and things related to.
Only do this if you are in a hurry. If not, think and reflect, again.
What do you want to do with OpenSurge?
Do you have a story? Is it consolidated?

Take this advice: temporarily freeze the development of the engine and center the jobs to build the story, characters, destiny, etc.
Organise a contest of the best level, set of levels or whatever you want, and the winner will put his/her creation into the game and a acknowledgment by the community (the level or creation must to be related to a part of the story). You would be the judge.
It's an idea. You can implement it or not. But it's something would raise the moral and enthusiasm of the players, or even the modders, and feel themselves proud.

Uuuuh! I lost the point of my argument.

Well, you are the own of your destiny, and you decide.

Sugarmaster wrote:

I think we all should re-read what alex wants to do with the game, because he never said "lets do a closed-project".

I read it four times. I understood what he wanted to say.

lunarrush wrote:

The problem here is, KZR and I are building an RPG game, and you want RPG elements, yet I have never seen you reuse any of our scripts, art assets, or anything else in Open Surge.

Let's use these pieces of art! Is this under free software? Yeah! And then? You can use the work of others under this terms of Creative Commons, aknowledging them.
It would be a big step to come through to the final release.

Sugarmaster wrote:

@S32X Alexandre doesnt annoys people, on the opposite: hes a VERY VERY patient admin of this "game"

Is Game between quotes? do you unconsciously tried to say that this is not a game?
Sorry, I want to say this. big_smile I got this bad habit of sarcasm when I combat with some trolls in the internet.

Sugarmaster wrote:

Alex doesnt want to "close" this project to a few people (payers and developers who get paid) because if he wanted to he would have done so a LONG time ago. He wants to do good things but also receive compensation because he spends LOTS of free time creating and administrating a thing that gets him ZERO money and thats great (in my opinion).

Yeah, you're right. Many people expects some more and Alexandre can't give up.

All I want is help to grow up the game.
IF you want, Alexandre, Sugarmaster, S32X, KZR and others, I can help you to rewrite a more solid story.
For example, you can't begin to build a building if you don't have a map and the knowledge to do it.
In this way, you can't try to develop a game if you don't know what you'll do.  I tried to tell us this moments ago.
Following a story keep you have a panoramic vision of the final game, and how it will be. After that, if you want, add more stuff less important such as bonus levels or cutscenes. The point of this is create quickly. It's June of 2012! the last stable release was in 2010.

I don't know what more to say.

I want to clarify I don't think it's a bad idea collect donations. NO.
I think is a good idea, indeed, it isn't new. Most of the open-source projects implements this:
http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff464/CharlyTx/OpenSurge/snapshot1.png

The part I don't like is the "pay if you want to collaborate". In this way people must say "pay me if you want my help".
Please say "If you love this game, do you want to help me to continue developing this game, thereby you can continue enjoying?"

Last edited by CharlyTx (2012-06-06 16:21:36)

Re: <important> new development philosophy

@CharlyTx

I'm not depressed.

@Alexandre

I know you don't want modders to help but PLEASE! Let me help development! If it has to do anything with creating software games, I want in on it. Like you, ever since I was 5, I wanted to make people satisfied with my creations and listen to their ideas as well.

Re: <important> new development philosophy

S32X wrote:

@CharlyTx

I'm not depressed.

@Alexandre

I know you don't want modders to help but PLEASE! Let me help development! If it has to do anything with creating software games, I want in on it. Like you, ever since I was 5, I wanted to make people satisfied with my creations and listen to their ideas as well.

Alexandre, a solution of this is convert S32X from a MODder to an official game (engine) developer.
But before let's make him a question..

S32X, what do you know about game developing?
do you know C language?
and anything about Allegro library?

if you answer yes to every question, you would be a good candidate to help him.

Re: <important> new development philosophy

No. sad *sigh* The only thing I do know is this:

Game Developing

It has a lot of math in it.
You encounter many problems, and if you're stubborn/determined like me, you try to fix it immediately.
It takes a long time to finish a complete game.
One person can't do it alone

Fine. I'll just stick to my MOD. I realize now that I'm not actually creating stuff, but building them with a support beam.

Re: <important> new development philosophy

S32X wrote:

No.  *sigh* The only thing I do know is this
Game Developing
It has a lot of math in it.
You encounter many problems, and if you're stubborn/determined like me, you try to fix it immediately.

When you said game developing, you tried to say a person who  modify the levels, graphics and scripts only? or a person who do that and make some modifications in the source code?

Re: <important> new development philosophy

Both. A very popular game in America (where I live) is Angry Birds. That uses an open source game engine called BOX2D created by Erin Cato. I wanted to follow the steps of Angry Birds, and make my own game using an open source engine. That's the thing that lured me into Open Surge. Eventually I joined the forums for advice and tips, then I got interested in the game itself until I wanted to help. That's basically the whole reason why I'm talking to you guys right now.